You're you're very welcome. I am excited about it too. And I'll just report since I saw you all last I think you may remember I was in New Zealand, and I just got back last night. So I'm very excited to pick up with the scenario that we ended with. Last time, and and my hope is is that everybody that is participating in the learning community today was with us last time. And if there are people that are joining us for the first time not to worry, we're going to touch on the scenario again. Before we, we dive more deeply into it. I will remind you though before we dive more deeply into the scenario. There were three characters. There was Jody, who was the resident living at the women's housing shelter. There was Andy, her boyfriend, who was visiting her there, and it was after hours. I'm glad that Michelle and I remember this. Excellent. And there was also Dave, and Dave is the staff person. And remember, we are Dave. We are the staff person. Okay. Now, before I share that scenario with you again just to refresh everybody, I am going to go backwards slightly and just quickly review four components. You can think of them as lenses, four lenses that we want to be viewing and experiencing the process of de-escalation through. And it's a model basically that has four components to it. I referenced it last time, but I didn't review it because I wanted to make sure we got to the scenario. So I'm going to take just a quick moment to share that four-part model with you, and then we're going to go right back to the scenario. So having said that, I'm going to share my screen. And this is the scenario, but I'm going to go backward for just a moment. And this is the model that I wanted to share with you. That is a four-part, and again, you can think of it as four perspectives of consideration or four lenses through which you can be looking at the process of de-escalation and that you can interact. So these four components can be guides, and they're broken into four domains, care, welfare, safety, and security. And I'm going to touch on – welcome, Patricia. I'm going to welcome – I'm going to touch on security first, even though it's the last one. And it's not the one featured here. But I wanted to touch on this first just as a reminder and as a thread back to our first part of the conversation, which is that your safety and the safety of your colleagues, the patient or the client, and the other team members, as well as the other clients or participants who may be surrounding the area, has to come first. So safety first. And just remembering that de-escalation is not about you putting yourself in harm's way. It's a process. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and it's a way to interact that can hopefully preempt or decrease heightened affect and difficult or challenging situations. So moving forward now to care, doing our best as we're interacting with a person in a moment of de-escalation as trying to see the situation through their experience as opposed to from our experience as the staff person, considering why might this person be escalated? What did they come into the moment with before they arrived? Also, the idea that our verbal as well as nonverbal behavior are critical in the process of de-escalation, and we want to do the best that we can to express and act in an empathic way when we're interacting with somebody. And I'll also touch back to what came out in our conversation in part one, was that probably the foundational cornerstones of effective de-escalation are the ability to communicate to that person that you may be interacting with. I hear you, and I'm here with you in this moment. So just keeping that in mind. And then part of care also, and we mentioned this in the process of de-escalation, is making sure that we debrief the situation. This particular bullet is referring to the possibility of even debriefing, when appropriate and if appropriate, with the person that was de-escalated, that sometimes that can be a learning opportunity actually for that person when they are in a more regulated state to actually debrief with them. What was maybe causing them to be escalated, what their experience of the debrief was, again, when and if appropriate, it's not always indicated. And that's a determination that you of course would make. Welfare. We've talked about the idea, and it's funny because this came up during several conversations while I was in New Zealand. The idea of historical, intergenerational, complex trauma, the folks that we are providing care to come to that moment with their whole lives and histories. And we want to do everything we possibly can to reduce or absolutely prevent any kind of humiliation or embarrassment or any kind of re-traumatizing of that person. Also, communicating to the person, excuse me, verbally and non-verbally, that we are interacting with them in a way with the potential of growing trust and that we are really trying to understand from their perspective. And then also keeping in mind that when someone is escalated, they are actually communicating to us about their state and trying to have the ability, not always easy when you're in the moment, but trying to understand what is it that this person is actually communicating through their escalated state. About where they are, that that can actually provide us with some insight. And safety. I think it was somebody in this learning community who alluded to the idea that you have prior relationships with some of the people that you provide care to. You might, because of your prior relationship, be able to observe or even anticipate various factors or changes in somebody's behavior that would give you insight into, oh, this person is not acting the way that they normally act. We want to pay attention and intervene here because we may be able to preempt something from going on. Also, that we are doing our best to make sure that the environment that we are in, the moment that we are in, is as physically and emotionally safe as possible. And that's, practically speaking, that you have access to the door, there are no sharp objects, and the tone of voice that you're using, the way you're interacting, is helping to create safety. Again, and that's a very subjective word. The final one is the idea of, when possible, always using the least restrictive form, method of intervention possible. And often the one that people think of immediately is the calling of 911, or whatever your emergency number might be, depending on where you are. So, keeping in mind, though, and we did touch on this, I believe, in the first part, that when it is necessary to bring other people in because of the gravity or the intensity of the situation, you're not doing that patient or yourself or your colleagues any favors by not bringing that intervention in. So, again, I'm confident that nobody in this learning community would rashly make the decision to bring in more sort of intense intervention. When it is necessary, though, it is necessary. And, again, you will use your determination in collaboration with your team to determine when is the right time to do that. Now, I'm going to stop sharing my screen for a moment. And I'm just going to ask if anybody has any thoughts or any reactions to those four sort of components of consideration, or those four lenses. Anybody have any thoughts about those? Any comments? Any reactions to those? Annie, anything particular jump out to you about those? No, it all makes sense to me. Yeah, go ahead, Jamie, go ahead, please. Well, two things come to mind. One is a scenario that I found myself in and something is just a thought on what you said about like knowing the client. I think it was during the pandemic, like right when it started, we had an incident in like the methadone dispensing area. And I said in the previous training that I feel very confident in my de-escalation skills. And I think sometimes like with that confidence can come sort of like blindness, if you will. Okay, yes. And so little old me found myself in between a guy who had something that became a weapon. This is the only time in my 10 years here, so don't worry guys. And I was really close to him and he had that weapon and he was very, very angry. And all of a sudden I like that, I was like, what am I doing? This is not safe for me and it's not safe for him. And it was like a really big learning moment for me that de-escalation doesn't mean getting in harm's way. And that was a hard lesson. I felt really, I was really disappointed in myself that I did that because I think that I like, I think things through and I don't usually make rash decisions, but I was just so quick to like, oh my God, he has like a metal bar. I do not want this getting like any worse than it possibly can. And so that was like a really, a really important learning moment for me. And then something that you had mentioned earlier about like knowing the client and like what can set them off or whatever. I totally agree with that. And I think that that is something that we, because of the relationships that we do have with our clients, it makes it like that much easier, if you will, to navigate those situations. But having said that, I think it's really important to remember that you do not know someone's full capacity at which they can get angry. And so I know this person, I've known them for 10 years. I've let you know, like I know like what happens when they're angry, know what happens, this, whatever. But like, you never know what can happen. And so I sort of think that like, kind of like both of those things sort of go together. Don't be like, don't be too cocky. Yes, absolutely. And Jamie, I think Lisa wants to add something, but, and Lisa, hold your thought for just one minute if you do wanna add something and maybe you don't, but you're in, you're unmuted and you didn't mean to, and maybe it was an accident, but I'll still ask you anyway if there's anything that you wanna say. Lisa's like, no, I've got nothing I'm muting. But Jamie, could I ask you a follow-up question in regard to what you said? If you could go back in that situation, and part of debrief is being able to go back in some way. If you could go back in that situation and you've clearly thought about it a lot, you've reflected on it a lot, but if you could go back in the situation how would you do it differently this time? If you could play it again, what would you do differently? I don't know if this is the right answer, but I think that I have to sometimes know my limit in me as a woman and a smaller woman compared to some bigger men and I think that's a big part of it. I think that's a big part of it. And I think that given that I am not always the best to maybe like intervene in that way, I can use like more clinical skills, but I think relying more on our security. And I think that that, I believe we did end up calling the police. It was a very awful situation. It was very upsetting. And I think that when I think about when I pulled out something that could be used as a weapon, at that point, it's crossed that threshold of being something that maybe I can manage. I wasn't managing it on my own by any means, but as I do, I like to take things on by myself. So I think making sure I'm like collaborating with the appropriate people and calls. Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question, but. It answered it completely. And thank you for reflecting on that. And there are really two very powerful things that I wanna underline in terms of what Jamie said. One is, is be very suspicious of the impulse to take things on by yourself, especially when it comes to de-escalation. Even when you think, I've got this, still involve somebody else. Continue to involve some, call Lisa or somebody else, and Lisa. Second, and Jamie, thank you so much for sharing from your own personal experience of de-escalation and your own insights about it. Of course. In the face of confidence, it's normal and human to be triggered by the situation. And again, Jamie, you described the pipe that turns weapon. It is normal, folks, for any of us in a moment to be triggered by something like that. And again, that's why we're not doing it alone. That's why we're involving other people. And that's why hopefully we're engaged in a process of de-escalation. And there's gonna be a way to work through that. And Jamie, I heard you when you said this was a very difficult situation. And we ultimately ended up calling the police, which adds another layer of challenge or difficulty to it. For the staff, not just the person, but for you. And remember folks, that safety in that four-part model is your safety too. So I wanna underline that. Jamie, thank you so much. Folks, any other thoughts or any other reactions to those four components? Okay, all right. Well, if there are, don't hesitate to unmute. I'm gonna share my screen again. And I wanna share a quote with you. And in light of Jamie's story and in light of not knowing the full range of somebody's affective sort of presence, this quote might be particularly relevant. Does anybody know the last sentence of this quote? And if you do, feel free to unmute or type it in the chat. I've learned that people will forget what you said. Go ahead, somebody was gonna say it. Made them feel. You got it, thank you, yeah. People will never forget, and here goes the magic of Zoom, how you made them feel. Now, I just wanna underline this because keep in mind folks, when someone's escalated, they may not actually be able to hear or understand the words you're saying because they're in a different part of their brain. But what they are gonna be paying very close attention to is your tone, not maybe the words, but the tone. And they're gonna be paying very close attention to, and let's say they're interacting with Scarlett, they're gonna be testing, how safe am I with Scarlett right now? There's gonna be this instinctual checking in. So I like to share that quote just to remind you that when you're in the moment of de-escalation with somebody, they are assessing you. They are trying to make sense of their interaction with Scarlett in a way that they might not be if they weren't escalated. And that those nonverbal, spatial, ponal interactions can escalate the situation or de-escalate the situation. So just keeping that in mind. And again, you may be doing your best to try and explain, but it's going right over their head because of where they may be at that particular moment. Now I'm gonna take us back to our scenario. And I'm gonna give you a moment to review the scenario again. I'm fairly sure you remember it, but I'll give you a moment to review it again. And we'll look at it together. And then we'll talk through maybe in a bit more detail about how we might intervene because we are Dave in the scenario. And then possibly we may even be able to talk to Jodi during our time together. So we'll see. But I'm gonna share my screen again and just let us review the scenario again. All right. So I'm gonna let the computer read it to you as well and just let it roll over you, remind you again, wash over you. Jody, the resident, Andy, the boyfriend, Dave, the worker, us. Now, I recall when we discussed this particular scenario last time, a number of people, and I think, Jose, you may have been one of them, made excellent suggestions about scaffolding activities that we could have done in advance, making announcements, going around and knocking on people's doors and reminding them that visiting times were almost up. Now, what I want to assure you is that we, Dave, did all of that, and Andy's still there. So where does that leave us? What is the next step? What do we need to do next? We did everything. We made the announcement. We knocked on the door. The curfew time has come. Andy needs to be gone. What are your thoughts? And remember, you've had a little time to think about this. What do you think? We ask, oh, by any chance, did you not hear the announcement earlier? You know, just for any reason, kind of like softly go into with the, hey, just clarifying, did you get the information I said earlier about curfew? Okay. And see how it moves forward. Okay. Okay. Blanca, if it's okay, can I make an assumption, and you can tell me if I'm wrong? Yeah. And actually, before I make my assumption and you tell me I'm either wrong or right, I want to note something that Blanca brought to her suggestion, and I don't know if anybody else noted this as well, but I want to particularly note it based on the slide that we just talked about. People will forget what you said, they'll forget what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel. I just want to say, Blanca, if anybody talked to me the way you just did with the respectful, gentle, authentic tone of voice that you brought to what you said, I would feel very good about that. And that's not the assumption. That's just me reflecting on what Blanca verbally and tonally brought to her inquiry. Let me underline, folks, that's not an accident. That's a skill. Let me also underline, folks, that's not an accident. That's a choice. That tone of voice is not presenting yourself as the enforcer. That tone of voice is presenting yourself as a collaborator. To my ear, I don't know if anybody else heard that, but that was what I heard. So I just want to share that. So, Blanca, I'm back to my assumption, okay? Okay. Do you have any reaction to my feedback about the tone of your voice? No, not at all. Okay, excellent. That was great. Yeah, I agree. Please feel free to de-escalate me if I go off the handle. The assumption that I made is that you've gone up to Jodi's room and you've knocked on her door. Do I have that correct? Yes. Okay, so I was correct in that assumption. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to make one more assumption, and you tell me if I'm correct or incorrect. The next assumption is that when you knocked on Jodi's door, you're only speaking to Jodi. You're not speaking to Andy. Am I correct in that or am I incorrect? Correct. I'm correct in that. Okay. All right. So let me underline Blanca's strategy. She goes up to the room. She knocks on the door. She speaks to Jodi only. And then she says what she says in that collaborative, respectful, inquiring tone. Okay? So that's one approach. Any other thoughts? Blanca, thank you. And if it's okay, we may come back to you. Any other thoughts about what you would do if you would speak to her and Andy? Yeah, go ahead, Annie. Go ahead. I was going to say maybe try calling her on the phone. And if that didn't work, asking her to step out and speak with you alone. Okay. Okay. So the idea of – and, Annie, can you say a little bit more about why you might start with the phone as opposed to the door? I think it might feel a little bit less invasive. And, you know, you can just – I think it could bring a softer touch to it and just say, you know, say something to her. Like, you know, I know that we just made the announcement just reminding you we have to do this with everybody. This isn't about Andy. This isn't about you. This is, you know, and like just really depersonalizing it. Okay. Fantastic. Fantastic. Thank you. Any other thoughts? Any other approaches? Would you go to the door? Would you knock on the door? Would you speak to her alone? Would you speak to him, both of them together? Would you speak to him alone? What do you think? I believe speaking to him alone – I'm sorry. Go ahead. I believe speaking to him alone would probably trigger her anger because you didn't consider her as the only – like, okay, this is my apartment. This is my room, not his. Why are you talking to him? him. He's just my visitor. You know, now you are, you're offending him. Yep. You know, you, why are you picking on him? You got to come to me. Him is not, him is not a solution. Got it. Got it. And Jose, I don't know if you saw this or not, but Lisa and Irene agree with you. Um, that it's her room. She's the person to go to. He's just the guest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Irene, Lisa, would you add anything? No, I agree with Jose. Um, I think it would be okay to speak with both of them, but certainly not just him. Okay. Fantastic. All right. Irene, anything? I don't have anything specific to add. I agree that definitely talking to just him is going to feel combative and dismissive of the person who actually lives there and being dismissed. Nobody likes feeling dismissed. So that could probably escalate the situation and is not the right call. Yeah. Through the roof. Potentially through the roof. Yeah. Okay. All right. Now we can go forward in one of two ways. One way is I can be Jody. I've done it. I can be Jody and somebody can be Dave. Or way two is that one of you can be Jody and I can try and be Dave. So way one is me, is me, Paul, as Jody and one of you as Dave. And way two is one of you as Jody and me as Dave. So you now get to exercise your autonomy or you could offer a third way that perhaps I haven't envisioned, but you can exercise your autonomy using the chat. Are you going to vote for way one or wait? And he says no. And he's going to vote for way two. All right. So go ahead and use the chat. You can vote for one or two. So far I'm seeing one, two, three, four, five, six, six twos. We do have 53 people in this learning community. And let's try and hear. So far everybody's saying two. So you want me to be Dave. Okay. All right. All right. All right. So far it's all twos. All right. Thanks. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Excellent. And feels that they could portray Jodi. Yeah. Okay. Irene. Irene has got it. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Irene. Fantastic. Greatly appreciated. Now keep in mind, folks, I may need to call time because I may need help. And I'm not going to deescalate alone here. So I might say, time out. And that means that Jodi will pause for a moment. And that I will be able to reach out to all of you and say, guide me. Let me know what you need me to do. Okay. And again, I'm just throwing that out there as an option. So let's establish. Irene is Jodi. I'm Dave. The announcements have been made. And let's even say that I've called the room. I've used Annie's excellent suggestion of calling the room. And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll be right down. He's still not down. Is that possible that that could happen? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So he's still not down. So now I'm going to go up to the room. Okay. And I'm thinking of Blanca as I'm going up to this room. And let's just say for the purposes of this scenario, Blanca is my supervisor. She has supported me and helped me to grow my skills and my abilities. So let's just say Blanca is my supervisor. So Jodi, Irene, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to knock on the door and then however you, whatever happens after that, we'll just take it a moment at a time. Okay. Okay. Okay. Great. Knock on the door. I'm like, oh, just a minute. Oh, hi. Jodi, it's Dave. Could I just speak to you for a moment? Fine. What's up? Yeah. I'm really sorry to interrupt you and Andy. I know we spoke briefly on the phone. The curfew time is here. And I just wanted to check in and make sure that Andy was kind of getting ready to go. I know. I just don't get why it's such a big deal. You guys know Andy. He's here all the time. I really don't get what the big deal is. Understandably. And I can explain that. And you're absolutely right, Jodi. We do know Andy and we're really glad that he's here all the time. Clearly your relationship with him is really important. And we want to make sure that you, you know, continue to be able to spend time with him here. And to your question, the reason that it's a big deal is that because this is a women's shelter, at a certain time, we have to make sure that all the guests have vacated the premises to keep it safe for everybody who lives here. But you know, Andy's not an unsafe person. He'll be fine. So I really don't get it. Yeah. And again, Jodi, I couldn't agree with you more. We absolutely know Andy is a safe person and we're always happy to see him when he's here. And the guideline and the rule of the curfew keeps everybody safe. Not everybody knows Andy. And I couldn't agree with you more. He's a very safe person. And again, the guideline just keeps it safe for everyone. Fine. Whatever. He'll be getting ready. He'll be out soon. Fantastic. All right. So I, again, I'm really sorry to interrupt. We'll be really glad for Andy to come back tomorrow or whenever he can come back next. And thanks for working with me on this. I'm, again, sorry to end your visit with him, but looking forward to, I'll see you both as you walk him out if you want. Fine. I'm imagining she closes the door not happily. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fantastic. Excellent. So any thoughts, any reactions? And I want to underline, by all means, if you want to say something, that's great, Irene, but I now want to underline something that Irene said. And I love the fact that you said this, Irene. Irene said she closes the door unhappily because let's face it, folks, she may not be happy with this outcome, but it's still our job as Dave. But did you, Irene, did you want to add something? Did you want to say something? No, I just feel that sometimes even when a situation is deescalated, people are still upset. Like she can be like, fine, he'll leave, but she's not happy about it. That's right. That's right. And you're making such an important point that deescalation is not always that everybody walks off hand in hand to Candyland. Sometimes people are still not happy, but they are deescalated. Yeah. Any thoughts? Is there anything that you noticed that I did? Anything that you'd comment that I did in terms of the interaction between Jodi and I? I think for me, like the reassurance of like when she's like, but he's a safe person. Like if this is a safety issue and you were like, you're correct. I think that Andy is a safe person. Right. However, these are the guidelines and the rules to this program. And I think that to this program. Right. So it's nothing personal against Andy. And I feel like you said, I feel that Andy is a safe person as well. So I feel like you help to deescalate the situation by reassuring her feelings of like how she feels about this person. But it isn't about that. Right. It's about the rules and us just following. OK, so that was important in your conversation with her. Yep. Yep. And to be honest, Tiffany, thanks for noticing that. To be honest, I wouldn't have said that if I didn't really believe it. And I chose for the purposes of the scenario that, yeah, he is a good guest and that, you know, he hasn't been a troublemaker. So now one of your colleagues wrote, Dina wrote in the chat or no, I'm sorry, that's I'm not sure. I'm not sure what your first name is, but one of your colleagues wrote in the chat. I think in a real life situation, it does not work that easy. Say a little more about that. What do you what do you mean by a real life situation? If you're able to. And I think you may be typing. And Irene also said, I agree that it definitely might not be that easy in real life. Well, and Irene is saying that and she played Jodi. So so, Irene, what kept you from making it real life? Well, I think it could also be a way that it can turn out. Mostly I was thinking like if that was me in that situation, what I would be really upset about is people seeing this person that I care about as an unsafe person. I'm like, he's not unsafe, he's fine. Like, there's nothing wrong with him. And you guys know that. So you were like, you telling me like, I know he's a safe person, but not everybody knows. I was like, I don't know. I felt like it was like, whatever, fine. At least you don't think he's a bad guy. Yeah. Like, that's not why you're making me do this. Yeah, exactly. So you were satisfied that I communicated that to you. That was enough. You weren't happy, but it allowed you to comply. Okay, so Jody would not agree that quickly. Okay, well, I don't know if you're able to unmute, but if you were, and you want to, we could play the scenario again. And you play it from what you feel is a more realistic perspective. We will have to play the scenario again. Okay. When the first question was asked, as Jody, the first thing that I would say, if it is real, is what the hell you are doing at my door. Because Jody heard all the announcement and everything. If she was so agreeable to collaborate, she will ask Andy to go. She did not. She did not. No, that means she will not have the first quest, just ready to listen. And to collaborate. I think you would need a little more meat than that. She will ask you, what are you doing at the door? You would probably answer. And she will say, it's not the first time Andy is here for long. Give us a break. Yeah, and again, if she were to have said to me, what the hell are you doing at my door? Yes. I would answer that question very simply and very clearly. And if she then followed that with, well, you know, Andy is not, this is not the first time he's been here longer. Give us a break. I would then say, clearly you want him to stay. And the curfew is what it is. Everybody follows the curfew. Andy has never not followed the curfew. So, you know, my goal is to make sure that Andy can continue to come back. For me, this is a very good answer. My goal is for Andy to come back. Yes. And then I would find a way to collaborate with you. Give me like another 15 minutes because we were in the middle of something. What's happened is, what's happened is, I don't think really Jodie, if she didn't want Andy to go when all the announcements, I don't think realistically she would say, okay, there is no problem. I think she will actually get a little more of negotiating, but your tone, your presence, the way you talk to her, the way you explain how Andy, the relationship is important. Yes. I would finally convince her to ask you for a little more layout and then finally Andy will go. That's what I think. I'm not saying the scenario was not good. I say you need a little more to be real. Understood, understood. And I want to underline something that you said and Jose, don't lose your thought. I want to underline something that you said because I couldn't agree with you more. It is going to be how I respond to her question, what the hell are you doing at my door? It's going to be how I respond to give us a break. He's been here many times. It's the how I respond. And if at any moment I get with to like, well, you know something, Jodi, it's the rule. He's got to go. If it turns into that, it's going to escalate the situation. Yeah. And I will underline one thing that maybe did show through in the brief demonstration with Irene. And again, you can tell me if it did or it didn't, but what I was trying to convey is that I understood that her time with Andy was important to her. No, you absolutely did. And I underlined that too, that your tone of recognizing how Andy is important. What I am saying, we need to make it a little more the way it is usually. Understood. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for adding that. Much appreciated. Jose, what were you going to say? What part does Andy play? Because a lot of times when situations like this happen that people don't want to separate or people don't want to follow rules or don't want to leave, the other party also plays a big part in it. You know, the other party, why are they coming over here to bother? You know, what's wrong with these people? You know, so they egg, you know, they push the person to react negatively instead of saying, you know what, mama, it's true. Let me just go and I'll see you tomorrow. But if he doesn't do nothing and he pushes to stay, she's going to react negatively. You know, she's going to, it usually happens, because I used to work in a migrant shelter and that was the result when people had to leave is because somebody has said something negative. Like, no, why are they coming over here? Why are they bothering us? So the person in charge is going to talk negatively. But if they say, you know what, I'm leaving, I got to go. So the person will be like, okay, let's, I'll see you tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. And I would throw out in this scenario, at least, there are probably two things that are most important to Jodi. And I could be wrong here, but I'm going to throw these two things out. Thing one is that she gets to spend time with her boyfriend and that they have a safe place to do that together, which is this shelter room. So that's thing one. Thing two is that she probably also wants to make sure that he's going to be able to come back to the room again. So Jose, to your point, and I couldn't agree with you more because it is, you know, he is going to have input in this situation possibly. But, and that is why, not but, and that is why I spoke to Jodi alone, because what Jodi will probably go back and communicate to him, whether he likes it or not, is if you don't go now, you won't be coming back. But she'll communicate that to him, not me. So, so there's, that is part of the strategy behind speaking to her alone so that I'm not sort of, you know, she's not in a position of having to be egged on by him and that, you know, she will communicate the message because chances are he wants to come back to the shelter as well to see her. So- Can I add something to that? Yes, of course, Blanca, go right ahead. I also do think that talking to her alone plays a big part with not embarrassing her in front of her own visitor, because if you do it in front of her visitor, she can either see it as something personal or like she doesn't want to show that she's weak to the person that's with her. Yes. It also could embarrass him if it was said in front of him. Right, and remember those four lenses, one of them is, you know, causing the least embarrassment, the least, so keeping that in mind. This, I think, was really important, letting her know that he will be able to come back. I couldn't agree more because that's what she wants. She wants for him to be able to come back. And that's part of the reason for following the rules, the guidelines, the parameters. At this point, we could just call Miguel to the rescue. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, Blanca, absolutely. Yeah, okay. All right, Irene, before we move forward, is there anything else you'd like to say from your experience of being in the conversation? If you're talking. No, I think everybody has made a lot of really valid points. Everybody's done a good job. I don't know, I agree with a lot of people. Okay, okay, thank you, thanks. So again, keeping in mind, not a surprise to call Miguel, okay. And why is that? Why is it not a surprise to call Miguel? Somebody let me in on the magic that Miguel works. So the reason why I wrote that comment was because he has a really impressive way of talking that doesn't sympathize, but doesn't belittle. It's almost like he just states a fact of, hey, this is what's going on with respect, with a tone, right, with a very big matter of fact, where as a person, I wouldn't say the word is intimidated, but I would feel like, well, clearly it's a rule because the way he speaks, you can't say that he's angry, you can't say that he's happy, you can't really put a feeling towards it. It's just like almost like you're reading it off of a paper or like a contract, like, oh, okay. There's like almost a feeling where when he speaks to you, you don't even feel like questioning it because he gives you all the fact and information in one clear statement. Understood, understood, absolutely. Yeah, that there's no emotion attached to it. It's just a clear statement. Yeah, yeah, and you prompted me to think of another scenario too. It's the same scenario, but another response could be something also to the effect of, she said, well, he's a safe person, everybody, he's not gonna, and again, I affirmed that. Yes, of course, we know Andy is a safe person and we're always glad when he's here. And some people who have not followed the curfew have lost, they forfeited the privilege of having a guest come visit them. And I know that that would be a loss for you. So being able to offer that it's somebody else, it's not her, and that it would potentially be a loss for her if that were to happen, gives her an ability to contemplate what not following the guideline might be for her. It's not a threat, it's somebody else that it happened to. So again, the moment would kind of dictate how we would do, but sometimes if we frame it is that, other folks who've been residences here who have chosen not to follow the curfew have actually forfeited their privileges of having guests. And just letting that sit in the air for a while or let it sit in the air for a moment. Again, depending on the moment, go ahead, Blanca, go ahead. Now, given the situation, let's say she agreed, okay, he'll be leaving. What if it takes another half an hour? What do you do then? Yeah, the what ifs in a situation like this are kind of endless. Ultimately, what I might say to myself if I were Dave, and in this scenario I was, but what I might say to myself is that I've at least started the process, he's on his way out, and we would need to revisit the timely carrying out at another time. Because the goal is to make sure that the curfew time is met. So I would have started the process, he would have started to move out to leave, and I would then at another time revisit, how do we tighten that up? So that's- Because I feel like in a way, the boundary is not really fully set. Yeah. Just because we do give like an extra leeway of time and you know the saying, give a finger, take an arm. Yes. It's very difficult where you have to kind of like- Yeah. I understand it's deescalated, but she's still technically upset. Yeah. So I wonder if like, you know, not saying I would be that person in that situation, but like if in a spiteful way she decides, oh, just stay half an hour more, it's like, oh, how can I approach that again without like meeting my requirement, but also respecting hers? Yeah, and that is, and I'm gonna use the word of our colleague, and I think she was very astute in putting it that way, was that it would be a negotiation with her. And there are some situations where we can negotiate, and there are other situations where we cannot negotiate. And what I would be very clear about, especially if there was the, you know, half an hour protracted leave, I would need to go back to that at a certain point to clarify and to assure that the boundary was strong and clear. This is what the clock says. This is when it ends. So that we're not indulging the, you know, give an inch, take a mile, give a finger, take an arm kind of scenario. Irene, you were gonna say something. Sorry, I started talking, I was still muted. It was kind of in that same vein, because like in my conversation, like when I was being Jodi, I said, okay, fine, he'll leave, but I closed the door. So that may not necessarily be true, but he also might leave and just take a really long time to do so. And at that point, like, what is, like, how long does it have to take for her to be breaking the rule versus not breaking the rule? And I guess if he leaves and she's like, he left, I didn't break the rule, but you're like, yeah, but it took him half an hour to leave. That might be another different de-escalation that you might have to do, because she's like, but he left, like you told me he needed to leave and he left, he's not here, what's the deal now? Yep, yep, and again, that would be another conversation. And the conversation would be, thank you for collaborating with me, Jodi. He did leave, greatly appreciate that. And to be clear, the curfew ends at this particular time. And this is the guideline that every resident here has to follow. And I just wanna make sure we're on the same page in regard to that, because I wanna make sure that Andy is able to visit you as often as he wants. And in order to assure that, the curfew has to be followed. And that would be the follow-up conversation. The bottom line of it is, is the negotiation or the way that it played out is the way it played out in that situation. That does not mean that you can't go back, if needed, and re-clarify the boundary or the guideline in a less escalated situation. Remember, Andy's not there. You have an opportunity to talk to her again. And if she does this again, you can remind her that you had this conversation and that she's risking her privilege. So I leave it to you, Jodi. You can choose the direction that you wanna go in and I'll follow the direction you go in. So if you choose to ignore the curfew, unfortunately, that means that you're cutting off your visits with Andy. So part of helping people to deescalate is allowing them to escalate to, not escalate, allowing them to exercise, that's the right word, to exercise their autonomy. And let Jodi choose. Do you want to have visitation rights? Or do you want to break the rule and lose your ability to have anti-visit? It's your choice. You've agreed, or you could potentially lose your housing. That sometimes is another element. So again, it would depend on the scenario, the realities of the situation. But some residents, if they don't follow the rules, they're removed from the housing. It could be taken as a threat, Sharon, and it would depend on how it was communicated. It really would depend. I want to make sure that you still have a place to live. And I want to make sure that you're able to have visitors while you're living here. And the fact would also remain, and I'm thinking of Miguel as I say this, the fact would also remain that if you're not following the guidelines for residents, step one is potentially you lose your ability to have guests, and step two is potentially you lose your apartment. So Jodi, I want to help you to make a decision about what you want here. And that's part of de-escalation too, helping the person to make a decision. And Sharon, I couldn't agree with you more. You are absolutely right. Depending on how it's said, it could certainly be a threat. It could also be a supportive communication. I want to make sure that if you want to continue to live here, I want to help you to be able to do that. It's a very seemingly simple scenario with a lot of complexity surrounding it. And again, thank you for being willing to play through it. I'm going to share my screen again as we start to bring part two of our conversation to conclusion for today. We've definitely met Jodi. A couple of things to keep in mind in terms of effective verbal, and I would love to add to this slide, and I may do it after this, a couple of principles to keep in mind in regard to verbal and nonverbal communication. Because remember, folks, when we're in the process of de-escalation, almost your nonverbal communication supersedes your verbal communication. You're using both, but keep these things in mind. Can you quickly define paraverbal? I certainly can, and it's one that people are often asking questions about. Paraverbals are any sounds that you make, their tone, and they're often also speed at which you're speaking. It's the things that kind of go along with the verbal, but not the actual words. The speed, the tone, and the sound. Sometimes you might say, Jodi might say something, and I might go, hmm, that's a sound that has a communication attached to it. Now, Jodi might say that same thing, and I could go, hmm, which expresses something else. Just keeping that in mind. Again, we want to remain as calm and as even toned. Hopefully during the little demonstration with Irene, I did at least verbally demonstrate a calm tone of voice. When it's possible, and if it's safe to do so, emphasis on if it's safe to do so, we can talk to the person alone, be in a private space with the person so they're not embarrassed, they don't feel, again, if it's safe to do so. If it's not safe to do so, do not take this person to a private space. Being very clear, and one thing I always like to add to body language is your spatial proximity. How close are you to this person? Are you in their space? Are you, you know, where are you in space with them? Physically and verbally, keeping it simple. This is not the time for you to give your detailed account of why this particular rule is particularly relevant. Also, you're really trying to understand their perspective, which is what reflective listening is. And hopefully in the brief demonstration with Irene, I did demonstrate a bit of reflective listening in terms of I reflected back to her what I heard her say, and then silence. Sometimes after having said what you need to say, allowing there to be silence so that Jodi or whomever can think about or consider what they may say or do next. We don't want to have like a steady stream of us talking. And then watching your paraverbals. How quickly are you speaking? What other kind of sounds are you making? What's your tone of voice? Keeping those things in mind. So I just wanted to share these with you as kind of like a toolbox, toolkit, quick reference resource. Now, the final thing that we'll talk about today is what's called the ABC model. A stands for affective state. Affective state, what are the feelings you've observed or are observing in this person? B, what is their behavioral functioning? How are they physically interacting? C, what is their cognitive state? Do they sound like they're, are they making sense? Is what they're saying making sense? Is it related to the moment? Does their thinking seem clear? Now, this is a model that I would throw out to you. Does this work if the client is nonverbal or deaf? Victoria, very interesting question. Probably in a situation where you are working with a client who is nonverbal or deaf, if they are nonverbal but they can hear, of course, those effective verbal communication skills would come. If they can't hear, I would definitely say that we're back again to that realm of how important nonverbal communication is and facial expression and body language actually are. And again, also how this particular individual may communicate. So, this little ABC model that I'm sharing with you as a tool, what I'm going to ask you to do, and remember, A is affective state, B is behavioral functioning, C is cognitive state. I'm sharing this with you because I want you to keep in mind that at any moment you can do an ABC snapshot of any person that you're interacting with. And what I'm going to suggest that you do at least twice after our learning community conversation concludes for the day, what I'm going to ask you to do is two times later today, somebody that you're interacting with, that you're observing, just in your mind, do a quick ABC. What's their affective state like? What's their behavioral functioning? What's their cognitive state? So, that you get into the habit of being able to quickly take a snapshot of where this particular person is. And just for the purposes of our time together, what I'm going to ask you to do is apply either A, B, or C to me. So, from your perspective, and remember, this is subjective, it's your assessment. What is my either affective state like? What is my behavioral functioning like? What is my cognitive state? Pick A, B, or C, and just type your quick assessment, a few words that you would describe a few words that you would describe either my affective state, my behavioral functioning, or my cognitive state. So, just do a quick assessment of me, your trainer, in the time that we've been together. Okay, so Annie says engaged and enthusiastic. Robin says affective state, calm. Okay, excellent. And again, this is your subjective assessment. Whatever you type is your, it's not at all chat lag. Excellent. I did get a little sleep, which I'm very happy. Very attentive and good listener. Okay, and again, this is just your quick assessment of either affective state, behavioral functioning, or cognitive state. Engaged and calming, okay. And what I am going to ask you to do, okay, enthusiastic, Riley says. What I am going to ask you to do, euthymic, Victoria says. Engaged, calm, and engaged. What I am going to ask you to do is please do try and apply this two more times today to somebody you happen to be observing. It can be somebody you're observing in face-to-face, or in a Zoom meeting, or over a telephone call. But just your subjective, what's their affective state like? What's their behavioral functioning like? What's their cognitive state like? And the reason I throw this out to you to consider is that this can be a quick way to assess the landscape before you walk in and do whatever you're going to do. Okay, now, there's another scenario that we're not going to look at together as a learning community, but I will share it with Katie, and I will ask her to either send it to Jamie or send it out to all of you. It's called, I believe it's called, what is it called? It's something at the front desk. And it was a scenario that was written about an exchange between the person working at the front desk and a client. And I want to share this scenario with you. Because it's an opportunity, and you could do this individually if you want to. You could do this with your colleagues if you want to. So it can be a small group or an individual activity. But I wanted to share it with you as a post-training support, specifically looking at how you might coach or advise this worker to interact with this person differently. Because what you'll see in the scenario, and I don't think I'm being too much of a spoiler by saying this, what you'll see in the scenario is that the worker actually escalates the situation. And she does it in the smallest kind of ways. And some of it relates to paraverbals, actually. But she escalates the situation. And I'm going to share this with you, again, as a post-training support. That if it's of any use to you to review individually or to review as a small group, that it can be a tool to further this conversation. So in the last few minutes that we have, I'm going to ask you to take a nice deep breath and just let it go. And just let it go. And I'll just say, I cannot thank you enough for making the time to be part of this two-part conversation. And I also wanted to just give a moment or two, if there's anybody who would like to unmute and maybe share, just as a way of concluding our conversation, one thing that stands out to you about our time together in this learning community. And it doesn't have to make sense to anybody but you. But one thing that perhaps stands out to you about your experience in our learning community together, in the two parts of our learning community. And just as a way of concluding, if there's anything that particularly stands out to you. And again, there's no right or wrong there. And you can feel free to unmute or you can put it in the chat, whatever is best for you. For me, I think the biggest thing that stood out is a genuine care for the person whoever were just de-escalating the client. Because if that isn't there, then it makes it harder to see them as a person and do what needs to be done. Like, for example, with Jodi, if we didn't care about her, it would make it harder to actually talk to her genuinely and do what needed to be done. Yeah, yeah. And you know, Sharon, you're making such a good point because it's about knowing where you're coming from. And I loved your word, genuinely knowing where you're coming from. And that doesn't mean you don't have feelings about it too, because I would imagine Dave is not too happy about having to go up there and knock on Jodi's door. He made the announcements. He followed Annie's excellent directions and made the call. But he still had to go up there to do his job. And he may have feelings about that. But if you can genuinely care, yeah, thank you. Christine, you're very welcome. Thank you. Anything else stand out? Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Lisa. Yeah, please. One of the things that I kept thinking about throughout that whole play is that this is probably not the first time that Jodi has pushed the limits of the rules of the residents. And so I think depending on how many times Dave has had to have these interactions with her, may very well color how his approach is going to be. And you have to be self-aware. You know, it could even be something that happened outside of the residence that colors his energy at that moment. So you have to really be aware of your energy and what you're bringing to that interaction. And it's not always easy to do. Especially if it's someone that you've had previous contact with in a less than favorable reason, for a less than favorable reason. Yes, yes. And you know, Lisa, the thing I really want to underline in terms of what you're adding is that it is hard work. It is hard work. And that's why a final, final takeaway message, folks, is no one de-escalates alone. Do not de-escalate alone. Thank you so much, Lisa. Thank you. I particularly like the idea of a return demonstration, following up with a scenario, and making sure I understand and practice de-escalation. Yeah, the idea that you can go back and you can use the debrief as a way to review it. Wonderful. Folks, I'd love to be able to access the resources later. Yeah, I'm pretty sure, Katie, you can make the slides available to people as well. Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Well, folks, again, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for participating and for everything that you brought to the table. I hope that we will get to be in a learning community in the future. And it's really been a privilege and a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you.

de-escalation

women's shelter

curfew enforcement

empathetic engagement

four-part model

cultural sensitivity

reflective listening

conflict prevention

emotional dynamics

calm communication

personal biases

team collaboration